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	<title>Comments on: No need for level cap increases</title>
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	<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/</link>
	<description>MMORPG design, raiding, and guild leadership</description>
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		<title>By: Marcela Axson</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2795</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcela Axson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2795</guid>
		<description>excellent article here at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/&lt;/a&gt; . Thiking to translating your writing into korean for our readers. Will let you know after I speak to our writers. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent article here at <a href="http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/" rel="nofollow">http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/</a> . Thiking to translating your writing into korean for our readers. Will let you know after I speak to our writers. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Lambert</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2764</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 07:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2764</guid>
		<description>In many cases, the problem is purely a psychological one.  Charn summed it up quite well.

It is human nature to want to &quot;be better&quot; than the &quot;other guy&quot; and &quot;better&quot; is measured by some sort of differentiator.  A virtual world is no different than the real world in this.  In fact, the virtual world can often be more brutal because a good number of folks channel any real world frustrations they might have into this alternate life.

Most folks, deep down inside, want to be &quot;at the top&quot; and don&#039;t really want too many other folks there.  Of course in an MMO, this is pretty futile and bound to lead to frustration.  I have many friends who have quit many MMOs right after a level cap increase.  I press them and they cannot offer a rational explanation.  They are clearly angry and bitter, and point to &quot;the grind&quot; and &quot;never being able to be keep up&quot;, etc, but in the end, I believe it is that, for them, the only driver to begin with was being &quot;king of the hill&quot;.  Faced with having to climb again, they just can&#039;t do it.

For a lot of people, MMOs are about rocketing to &quot;max lvl&quot; as soon as possible, and then standing around in an auction house and complaining on forums.  A level cap bump is traumatic because it forces them back into action &quot;unnecessarily&quot;.

Personally, I have learned to just enjoy being in these worlds and doing what content I can.  I have lvl 80 characters in EQ1, EQ2 and WoW and some low level chars in LoTR, RoM, STO, CoH/CoV, DDO and a few others.  EQ2 just increased the cap and, to be honest, I really don&#039;t care.  I am excited to explore the new content.  I&#039;ll hit 90 when and if I hit it.  If I am &quot;locked out&quot; of the ultimate end-game encounters because I am &quot;under AA&#039;d&quot; or &quot;undergeared&quot; I really don&#039;t care either.  I don&#039;t invest so heavily in any one game that it matters anymore.  There are other things to do besides gaming and other games to play as well.

The point where MMOs become such stress, seem like a &quot;grind&quot;, feel like &quot;work&quot;, where level cap increased cause &quot;angst&quot; and &quot;keeping up with the joneses&quot; starts to inspire rants and flames... These are all signs that its time to reduce your emotional investment in the game.

Any game whose goal is to present a living world that offers something to players new and old over a period measured in *years* is going to have some sort of progression and, as a result, will never be able to avoid these problems.  I have heard some suggest that MMOs should have some &quot;quick&quot; ramp to max level and then the game would &quot;begin&quot;.  I would submit that this would fail miserably as well.  It would simply be an X month delay on the game becoming a persisten world FPS.

In an RPG you trade time for improvements to your character.  Whether these improvements are highly obfuscated (as they are in EVE) or very clearly defined (as in the EQ model), they are still clearly there or you would have no character development.  Every system in which time is traded for progression is going to have to manage a development curve that is going to have to slowly creep forward as the game ages and, hopefully, keep as many players as possible in the &quot;active&quot; portion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In many cases, the problem is purely a psychological one.  Charn summed it up quite well.</p>
<p>It is human nature to want to &#8220;be better&#8221; than the &#8220;other guy&#8221; and &#8220;better&#8221; is measured by some sort of differentiator.  A virtual world is no different than the real world in this.  In fact, the virtual world can often be more brutal because a good number of folks channel any real world frustrations they might have into this alternate life.</p>
<p>Most folks, deep down inside, want to be &#8220;at the top&#8221; and don&#8217;t really want too many other folks there.  Of course in an MMO, this is pretty futile and bound to lead to frustration.  I have many friends who have quit many MMOs right after a level cap increase.  I press them and they cannot offer a rational explanation.  They are clearly angry and bitter, and point to &#8220;the grind&#8221; and &#8220;never being able to be keep up&#8221;, etc, but in the end, I believe it is that, for them, the only driver to begin with was being &#8220;king of the hill&#8221;.  Faced with having to climb again, they just can&#8217;t do it.</p>
<p>For a lot of people, MMOs are about rocketing to &#8220;max lvl&#8221; as soon as possible, and then standing around in an auction house and complaining on forums.  A level cap bump is traumatic because it forces them back into action &#8220;unnecessarily&#8221;.</p>
<p>Personally, I have learned to just enjoy being in these worlds and doing what content I can.  I have lvl 80 characters in EQ1, EQ2 and WoW and some low level chars in LoTR, RoM, STO, CoH/CoV, DDO and a few others.  EQ2 just increased the cap and, to be honest, I really don&#8217;t care.  I am excited to explore the new content.  I&#8217;ll hit 90 when and if I hit it.  If I am &#8220;locked out&#8221; of the ultimate end-game encounters because I am &#8220;under AA&#8217;d&#8221; or &#8220;undergeared&#8221; I really don&#8217;t care either.  I don&#8217;t invest so heavily in any one game that it matters anymore.  There are other things to do besides gaming and other games to play as well.</p>
<p>The point where MMOs become such stress, seem like a &#8220;grind&#8221;, feel like &#8220;work&#8221;, where level cap increased cause &#8220;angst&#8221; and &#8220;keeping up with the joneses&#8221; starts to inspire rants and flames&#8230; These are all signs that its time to reduce your emotional investment in the game.</p>
<p>Any game whose goal is to present a living world that offers something to players new and old over a period measured in *years* is going to have some sort of progression and, as a result, will never be able to avoid these problems.  I have heard some suggest that MMOs should have some &#8220;quick&#8221; ramp to max level and then the game would &#8220;begin&#8221;.  I would submit that this would fail miserably as well.  It would simply be an X month delay on the game becoming a persisten world FPS.</p>
<p>In an RPG you trade time for improvements to your character.  Whether these improvements are highly obfuscated (as they are in EVE) or very clearly defined (as in the EQ model), they are still clearly there or you would have no character development.  Every system in which time is traded for progression is going to have to manage a development curve that is going to have to slowly creep forward as the game ages and, hopefully, keep as many players as possible in the &#8220;active&#8221; portion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2716</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2716</guid>
		<description>I agree. I was a long, long time player with EQ and the reason I honestly left it was that, after a few breaks, I had fallen way, way behind. After 68 levels of grinding, I just didn&#039;t have the willingness to grind out another 7-12 others. I knew that it wasn&#039;t a terribly long time to catch up level wise, but it was all that time I&#039;d rather be doing something else. It became a huge chore and just *wasn&#039;t fun.*

I, too, agree with others that Guild Wars had it right. Low and easy level cap, then make the game expand horizontally. Playing longer gave you a whole lot more depth to your character, but even if you were new, you could still play with someone who was old. Your skills and spells would be more narrow, but still plenty effective. I&#039;ve heard it&#039;s similar in EVE -- while it takes forever to max out all sorts of different skills, you can max out a tree of skills and become exceptionally effective in that area in quick time, thus able to play with your friends who had been playing for years. SWG had it right, too, at least in the olden days -- new and older players could play together fairly easily, because it wasn&#039;t that time consuming to max out a skill.

There are other ways to move a game horizontally, aside from powers and spells. Add other elements into games -- tradeskills, abilities, etc. that are meaningful and focused on new content. There&#039;s a whole entire host of things you could do in that regard, which would be fun for players, add something tangible to the game and have nothing to do with levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. I was a long, long time player with EQ and the reason I honestly left it was that, after a few breaks, I had fallen way, way behind. After 68 levels of grinding, I just didn&#8217;t have the willingness to grind out another 7-12 others. I knew that it wasn&#8217;t a terribly long time to catch up level wise, but it was all that time I&#8217;d rather be doing something else. It became a huge chore and just *wasn&#8217;t fun.*</p>
<p>I, too, agree with others that Guild Wars had it right. Low and easy level cap, then make the game expand horizontally. Playing longer gave you a whole lot more depth to your character, but even if you were new, you could still play with someone who was old. Your skills and spells would be more narrow, but still plenty effective. I&#8217;ve heard it&#8217;s similar in EVE &#8212; while it takes forever to max out all sorts of different skills, you can max out a tree of skills and become exceptionally effective in that area in quick time, thus able to play with your friends who had been playing for years. SWG had it right, too, at least in the olden days &#8212; new and older players could play together fairly easily, because it wasn&#8217;t that time consuming to max out a skill.</p>
<p>There are other ways to move a game horizontally, aside from powers and spells. Add other elements into games &#8212; tradeskills, abilities, etc. that are meaningful and focused on new content. There&#8217;s a whole entire host of things you could do in that regard, which would be fun for players, add something tangible to the game and have nothing to do with levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Klelith</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2715</link>
		<dc:creator>Klelith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2715</guid>
		<description>I completely agree that leveling creates a disparity between friends.  I call it The MMO Leveling Conundrum (http://lostinneurons.blogspot.com/2010/02/mmo-leveling-conundrum.html).  I wrote that post a few weeks ago.  It talks about how some MMOs try to beat the out leveling your friends problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree that leveling creates a disparity between friends.  I call it The MMO Leveling Conundrum (<a href="http://lostinneurons.blogspot.com/2010/02/mmo-leveling-conundrum.html" rel="nofollow">http://lostinneurons.blogspot.com/2010/02/mmo-leveling-conundrum.html</a>).  I wrote that post a few weeks ago.  It talks about how some MMOs try to beat the out leveling your friends problem.</p>
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		<title>By: /AFK &#8211; Allods of RMT Edition &#171; Bio Break</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2709</link>
		<dc:creator>/AFK &#8211; Allods of RMT Edition &#171; Bio Break</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2709</guid>
		<description>[...] Epic Slant wishes that devs would stop raising the level cap [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Epic Slant wishes that devs would stop raising the level cap [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Inman</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2687</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Inman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2687</guid>
		<description>I think the same thing.  I don&#039;t understand the addition of levels.  It makes more content obsolete than it does adding.  

Many new players never get to see the old content.  You can&#039;t even talk your own guild into doing it for nostalgic value.  

Just imagine if all content was the same level at the end game how much you would have to do in World of Warcraft.

The only logic I see with increasing the level cap is to level the playing field.  It lets new players to the game be equal to someone who has played the game for years.  A level 100 noob, and a level 100 veteran both hit the level the same day they are basically the same.  Both have the opportunities to upgrade their gear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the same thing.  I don&#8217;t understand the addition of levels.  It makes more content obsolete than it does adding.  </p>
<p>Many new players never get to see the old content.  You can&#8217;t even talk your own guild into doing it for nostalgic value.  </p>
<p>Just imagine if all content was the same level at the end game how much you would have to do in World of Warcraft.</p>
<p>The only logic I see with increasing the level cap is to level the playing field.  It lets new players to the game be equal to someone who has played the game for years.  A level 100 noob, and a level 100 veteran both hit the level the same day they are basically the same.  Both have the opportunities to upgrade their gear.</p>
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		<title>By: Ferrel</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2683</link>
		<dc:creator>Ferrel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2683</guid>
		<description>It would mostly be to cater to the group that believes you have to raise level caps or loves to hear the ding sound!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would mostly be to cater to the group that believes you have to raise level caps or loves to hear the ding sound!</p>
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		<title>By: Charn</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2682</link>
		<dc:creator>Charn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2682</guid>
		<description>Progression in any MMO seems to be a &quot;damned if you do, damned if you don&#039;t&quot; situation.  I played Anarchy Online with a friend when it was released, but haven&#039;t played after the first month.  He recently tried it again and, while level 5, saw a level 220 come floating past  . . . and just logged out.  I can understand his reticence to want to grind out that many levels.

On the other hand, on the occasion I log into EQ1 (I&#039;ve an all access subscription, but haven&#039;t really played EQ1 at all since EQ2 was released) with either one of my two level 77 characters (the max level I got before stopping) I look at the DAUNTING amount of AAs I would have to get (not to mention getting my two characters to the level cap) to be even considered to be effective in a group, AS WELL AS trying to figure out the pages of AAs and what they are and what to get . . . and I just log out.  I can&#039;t bring myself to want to grind out the last few levels AND all those AAs.

And then there was an old text-based MUD I used to play, DragonRealms.  Although they DID have levels . . . they really didn&#039;t mean anything.  EVERYthing in that game was skill based.  And EVERY skill had to be trained individually (though often concurrently) if you wanted to improve your character.  The combination of skills would determine your level . . . and all levelling really gave you were Time Development Points (TDPs) allowing you to increase base stats.  So, really, they didn&#039;t have levels, just &quot;skill ups&quot;.  Of course, seeing content where you had to have 250 skill in this, 300 in that, 450 in another (and skill ups happened VERY slowly . . . it took me 2+ years before I broke 200 in my first skill ) I stopped playing that game as well.

All you can really ask of any MMO is that, whatever they do to allow players to improve their characters with the release of new expansions, they make the journey, from character creation to end game, fun and exciting.  I do like that EQ2 allows for, not only mentoring of lower level characters so you can group together with your friends (and help them catch up by offering bonus experience by doing so) but it allows for &quot;self mentoring&quot; - lowering your effective level on a whim to go back and have fun with older content you thought was fun, or that you missed entirely.

But I DO worry that, now that the level cap is 90 with the release of The Sentinel&#039;s Fate expansion, that somewhere there&#039;s a new player, all excited about playing EQ2 for the first time . . . only to see me come floating by on a carpet 80+ levels higher . . . and they just log out and stop playing.  Without the influx of new people into older games, they may last a while (people are STILL playing DragonRealms 15+ years later) but they can&#039;t last forever.  What IS the answer?  If I had that, I&#039;d be producing my own MMO . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Progression in any MMO seems to be a &#8220;damned if you do, damned if you don&#8217;t&#8221; situation.  I played Anarchy Online with a friend when it was released, but haven&#8217;t played after the first month.  He recently tried it again and, while level 5, saw a level 220 come floating past  . . . and just logged out.  I can understand his reticence to want to grind out that many levels.</p>
<p>On the other hand, on the occasion I log into EQ1 (I&#8217;ve an all access subscription, but haven&#8217;t really played EQ1 at all since EQ2 was released) with either one of my two level 77 characters (the max level I got before stopping) I look at the DAUNTING amount of AAs I would have to get (not to mention getting my two characters to the level cap) to be even considered to be effective in a group, AS WELL AS trying to figure out the pages of AAs and what they are and what to get . . . and I just log out.  I can&#8217;t bring myself to want to grind out the last few levels AND all those AAs.</p>
<p>And then there was an old text-based MUD I used to play, DragonRealms.  Although they DID have levels . . . they really didn&#8217;t mean anything.  EVERYthing in that game was skill based.  And EVERY skill had to be trained individually (though often concurrently) if you wanted to improve your character.  The combination of skills would determine your level . . . and all levelling really gave you were Time Development Points (TDPs) allowing you to increase base stats.  So, really, they didn&#8217;t have levels, just &#8220;skill ups&#8221;.  Of course, seeing content where you had to have 250 skill in this, 300 in that, 450 in another (and skill ups happened VERY slowly . . . it took me 2+ years before I broke 200 in my first skill ) I stopped playing that game as well.</p>
<p>All you can really ask of any MMO is that, whatever they do to allow players to improve their characters with the release of new expansions, they make the journey, from character creation to end game, fun and exciting.  I do like that EQ2 allows for, not only mentoring of lower level characters so you can group together with your friends (and help them catch up by offering bonus experience by doing so) but it allows for &#8220;self mentoring&#8221; &#8211; lowering your effective level on a whim to go back and have fun with older content you thought was fun, or that you missed entirely.</p>
<p>But I DO worry that, now that the level cap is 90 with the release of The Sentinel&#8217;s Fate expansion, that somewhere there&#8217;s a new player, all excited about playing EQ2 for the first time . . . only to see me come floating by on a carpet 80+ levels higher . . . and they just log out and stop playing.  Without the influx of new people into older games, they may last a while (people are STILL playing DragonRealms 15+ years later) but they can&#8217;t last forever.  What IS the answer?  If I had that, I&#8217;d be producing my own MMO . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Docholiday</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2681</link>
		<dc:creator>Docholiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2681</guid>
		<description>I think that was part of it, but I also think they wanted to re-balance the radiance sets and legendary items.  They wanted everyone to ditch their &quot;too-good&quot; Moria sets and their 1st ages (and 2nds for that matter) such that they could re-work both systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that was part of it, but I also think they wanted to re-balance the radiance sets and legendary items.  They wanted everyone to ditch their &#8220;too-good&#8221; Moria sets and their 1st ages (and 2nds for that matter) such that they could re-work both systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Green Armadillo</title>
		<link>http://www.epicslant.com/2010/02/mmo-no-level-cap-increase/comment-page-1/#comment-2680</link>
		<dc:creator>Green Armadillo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.epicslant.com/?p=1992#comment-2680</guid>
		<description>Further thoughts on trivializing content are &lt;a href=&quot;http://playervsdeveloper.blogspot.com/2010/02/upside-of-removing-content.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;up at my blog&lt;/a&gt; - I&#039;m guessing that you will disagree with them.

As to increasing the cap by two &quot;meaningful&quot; levels, why increase it at all?  New spells and balance tweaks can be added without touching the cap.  I don&#039;t know my EQ2 hit mechanics, but WoW makes +3 mobs substantially harder to kill, while +4 mobs aren&#039;t intended to be tanked, so adding even a SINGLE level breaks hit calculations and trivializes most of the old content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further thoughts on trivializing content are <a href="http://playervsdeveloper.blogspot.com/2010/02/upside-of-removing-content.html" rel="nofollow">up at my blog</a> &#8211; I&#8217;m guessing that you will disagree with them.</p>
<p>As to increasing the cap by two &#8220;meaningful&#8221; levels, why increase it at all?  New spells and balance tweaks can be added without touching the cap.  I don&#8217;t know my EQ2 hit mechanics, but WoW makes +3 mobs substantially harder to kill, while +4 mobs aren&#8217;t intended to be tanked, so adding even a SINGLE level breaks hit calculations and trivializes most of the old content.</p>
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