I had heard a lot of rumors floating around the Sentinel’s Fate beta that battlegrounds would be showing up in EverQuest 2. I hoped that it was just a joke to tease me into a froth but it appears they were dead on accurate. Everquest 2 will have battlegrounds. Since my return to the game I’ve been pretty excited and far from critical of the experience. I don’t know anything about the implementation of this yet but I can at least talk in generalities about why I think this is a huge mistake for EQ2 (and pretty much any MMO with a PvE focus).
If you’ve played WoW you know that the Arena system and, to a lesser extent, the battlegrounds have done a whole lot of damage to the PvE game. This comes as a two pronged attack. The first is pretty overt. PvP players want to earn loot too for their efforts and like they did in WoW I can see that community on EQ2 demanding loot for the battlegrounds. They’ll claim “equal loot for equal work” or some such nonsense (in WoW equal work often equated to going afk or participating as little as possible in a BG)! I’m also certain that some sort of rewards will be given. Some of it, most likely, will only be able to be achieved via that system. I’m also sure SOE will throw some sort of “PVP only” statistic on these items to create two “different but equal” loot paths. Much like WoW, however, that won’t stop the gear from being useful or amazing in PvE. It will damage the group and raid experience. Why go do a casual raid when you can just sleep through 20 BGs to earn the token you need for a superior item? The average player will opt to go to the BGs because that is the path of least resistance. Win or lose in WoW you get a token. Do that enough and you get a reward. I believe the term they use there is “Welfare Epics.” Let’s hope SOE doesn’t make the same mistakes in this area that Blizzard did. We don’t need different loot paths! We don’t need a welfare system for fables!
On the other side of the coin we’re going to see a much more insidious effect. PvP ruins classes. Yes, I said that as a definite, black and white, yes or no, fact. I’ll even say it again! PvP ruins classes. If you’ve played WoW then you’ve had a perfectly fine ability for PvE nerfed because it was too powerful in PvP. Adding battlegrounds forces developers into balancing classes for two systems. Now instead of just worrying about how my templar stacks up in raids I now have to add the dynamic of battlegrounds. I’m sure someone will say I’m over reacted but history says I’m not. Unless they implement a system that completely separates how an ability effects a mob versus how it effects a player expect for some negative balance changes courtesy of the battlegrounds crowd.
I suppose I just don’t understand the reasoning behind this. EverQuest 2 is a PvE focused game. What market does SOE hope to grab by creating a battleground system in the expansion? I know adding new types of content seems like a wise idea but I think it just pulls the product further away from the core. No serious PvP player is going to come back just to enjoy three battlegrounds and now all of us bluebies have to suffer. I chose a PvE server for a reason dagnabit!
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I had a discussion with one of my long time officers the other day when he made a comment along these lines: In order to balance the battleground for non-raiders, SOE will need to provide some gear as rewards from these battlegrounds that is at least competitive against raid gear (so that raiders don’t dominate the battlegrounds). However, if the gear from these battlegrounds is too good, it ends up reducing the impact of raid gear (or outright trivializing it).
Simple fact is, unless you design a game with the intention of PVP and PVE (like abilities do different damage in PVE and PVP) it will fail. History, has shown every time PVP mixes with PVE the result is catastrophic.
Not only does the nerfing happen, but the mentality of games change.
I can tell you priest classes are nigh unkillable, akin to EQ paladins. It won;t take long before priests scream they can’t kill anyone. Everyone screaming that priests are to OP and can’t be killed. SO they up the offense and tune down the defense.. and now in PVE priests can’t keep a tank up, but can survive a few extra hits.
What SOE needed to do was design a PVP system for EQ. Something different, like Monster Play ( I know LOTRO tried it). IT would be cool to be the monster attacking the players… more fun then the run of the mill CTF.
Wow……..Ferrel I can honestly say I feel for you guys now. Some parts of mixing PvP and PvE aren’t that bad though.
WoW does have some safeguards now for people who get into a BG and do nothing. You have the option of reporting people that are afk. If someone gets reported by 3 different people, they get an Idle debuff that lasts a minute or so. If they don’t leave the BG or get in combat, they get an Inactive debuff and don’t receive honor or marks. So, Blizzard has tried to combat people just zoning in and getting a reward for doing nothing. It’s still exploitable, but you have to do some work to get around it.
Yes PvP epics are “welfare epics,” but the stats from PvP gear are majorly different than what is needed and received from PvE gear. Most raiding guilds will laugh at someone who applies to the guild in nothing but PvP gear.
One thing I will agree with you on is that PvP destroys class mechanics. If I had a dollar for every time I heard the phrase “They nerfed my (insert ability) because it was OP in arenas” I’d be living on my own island by now. It is virtually impossible to balance a class so it is viable for both PvP and PvE. It just doesn’t work. At least with WoW they have three specs/trees to choose from. Most classes will have more PvP-centered abilities in their trees so that you can make a PvP spec and a PvE spec. Still, the same balancing method comes into play since you use the same abilities in PvP and PvE.
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While i agree that PvP can ruin the PvE aspect of a game, it should take consideration that it didn’t ruin PvE in WOW and i doubt it will in EQ2.
Raids are there still in both games, unique rewards better for PvE porpuses.
Yes, rewards are great in PvP on EQ2, but you can’t sleep in 20 fights to earn one item, belive me you have to sleep in average for 80 times in PvP fights, on the worst scenario, if your team never wins…
Rewards are 3 tokens for a win, 1 token for a losing. Each piece costs in average from 40 to 50 tokens of 2 types = 80 to 100 tokens for each piece.
Considering a full PvP armor (leaving jewelry out), you have around 500 tokens necessary for a full suit.
Believe me, that is a LOT of time spent playing in PvP, shouldn’t players be rewarded for that amount of time spent???
Now regarding balance issues, if they are wise they will balance the game for PvP or PvE separately. Already items are dumbed down in PvP or vice-versa, some properties are only available in PvP and some are not.
Class speaking, if they make changes to classes separatelly for PvP (ex: this ability will only do xxxx amount of damage in PvP) then you have a almost perfect world.
Also, keep in mind one thing, at the moment you have forgotten classes in the game, yes… developers almost forget about some classes in the game in terms of roles.
Too many classes for the same role without significant differences.
Maybe the PvP aspect opens their eyes and brings new abilities that really separate classes from eachother instead of having x classes doing the same thing with diferent names..
People are still pigeon-holed into one spec, what the game needs is variety and target on changes.
PvP is a fresh air for EQ2, necessary to attract both existing players who don’t have time to gather a raid in 1 hour of play and the ones outside of the EQ2 world.
So far, BGs are weaker than in WOW imo, specially gears of Klakanon (speelling), WOW has much better BGs both in playability and performance wise.
But they are somewhat fun, can be a pain to be there everyday to get that item.. but in the end, rewards and benefits are good imo.
Also.. remember that EQ exists since 99.. and a lot have changed till today.. some people are a bit tired of achieving max level in a mmorpg and are limited to group/raid only instances.
Yes, its a mmorpg, so why play alone?
Cause there are actually people that although not having time to group up, like to spend 1-2 hours in a game and achieve something without a group and off course love the game for the ever-evolving world.
It was time for EQ2 to have decent PvP instead of the weak system that existed in PvP only servers.